Artemis BJJ was invited down to the Sports and Activity Fair at Bristol Metropolitan Academy, held on the 12th December. Chris and Can headed along to demonstrate Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to the pupils there and hand out some flyers.
After watching Chris and Can roll for a while, a few of the Year 10 students bravely stepped onto the mats to give it a go. Hopefully after those mount escapes, hip throws and double legs, they might be inspired to give the sport a try long term!
Thanks again to the school for inviting us. We hope the Fair was a big success and helps get the kids into sport.
Continuing our interview with Ricardo de la Riva (the first part is here), this week he talks about competing, women and the importance of training outside your own team. Sections of this interview appeared in Issue #004 of Jiu Jitsu Style and are reprinted with the kind permission of the editor.
ARTEMIS BJJ: I can remember in other interviews you’ve said that during your first competition as a black belt, you fought in both your weight and the absolute, beating Royce and Rolker Gracie along the way. How important do you think it is for smaller fighters to compete in the absolute as well as at their weight?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: It is always a bit risky to fight in the absolute, in case you get injured. So some fighters, they are quite tactical, they are not going to fight in the absolute because they might get injured and then not be able to fight in their own category.
But if you feel you can do the absolute, why not? If you think you’re fit enough, you’ve trained hard enough, if you think you have a chance, why not?
ARTEMIS BJJ: Is that something that has helped you, competing in the absolute?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: To be honest, I only fought once in the absolute: that first competition was the only time, and I won. In Carlson’s team, everyone was very big, heavy, strong. But in this competition alone, there was nobody my own size, so I had to go and fight the big guys as well. That was the only time.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Ah, so it is not something you would do much yourself, but you’d recommend other people try it, if they’re smaller?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: Yes, if they’re fit enough and prepared. But that is not something I did, because there were normally so many people in my own category. I felt it wasn’t necessary for me to do the absolute, it wasn’t needed.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Back when you started your training, do you remember many women training as well, or was that unusual?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: When I started to teach, I was teaching a group of fifteen year old girls, about fifteen of them. There was a time allocated just for girls at the academy. The difference now, even at my own academy, is that the girls are mixing with the boys. Previously they were a bit embarrassed or reluctant to join in with the boys, but now they are all in the same class. They are more confident. The girls are very keen to train, so have no problem training with the boys.
Jiu jitsu is very good for women, as it is a technical game. They benefit from it: it is good for the mind, the body. The moves don’t require much strength. You just have to relax a little bit, because sometimes when you walk up to a class, there are twenty men and only one woman. If they can overcome this first hurdle of sometimes being the only girl on the mat, then their jiu jitsu can really take off.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Did many of those fifteen year old girls that you taught continue in the sport, maybe up to black belt?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: I have a number of students who went off to have families, but they came back. Some have achieved brown belt, purple belt, and there are also many beginners. Remember, Rio is a very sporty city, very active. To practice a sport like jiu jitsu is common. Everybody wants to be in shape, due to the beach, so both boys and girls are very active in sports.
ARTEMIS BJJ: For some time, I and various others have been trying to establish who the first female Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt was. The top contenders at the moment are Karla Gracie, Patricia Lage, and possibly Kim Gracie. There is also somebody who is apparently from your lineage, Carmem Casca Grossa. Do you have any thoughts on who it might have been?
[Note: BJJ Heroes has managed to finally answer that question, identifying Yvone Duarte as the first]
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: It definitely wasn’t Carmem Casca Grossa, she trains with me now, and may have got the black belt four or five years ago. There are other women who have got the black belt beforehand, but I’m not too sure who it may have been. Karla or Kim are a possibility, but I’m not sure.
There wasn’t any competition for women then, you see. It is a fairly recent thing, women competing. Thirty years ago, there were no women competing, so it is hard to know who the first women black belt was due to that. The women have a different weight category. So it is hard to really determine.
ARTEMIS BJJ: In judo, athletes fight for their country. What do you think are the good and bad things about the way BJJ is instead structured around teams, like Carlson, Gracie Barra, Alliance etc?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: The disadvantage to this way is a ‘silent treatment’ that is very deeply rooted in jiu jitsu. You fight for your own academy. The down side of this, fighting for your own academy, you don’t get to know other games.
In the past, it was very, very serious. You would not be invited to go visit another academy. If you did, you would really suffer. You would not be welcomed: you would really have bad times, my friend! Everybody would frown at you, really want to have a go at you, solely because you’re from another academy.
The problem is that means you don’t get to fight with different people, to try different games. It is still deeply rooted, but it is getting better. So many foreigners come and train now, you have to look after them. It doesn’t matter where they train in their own country. I want to show my jiu jitsu, I want them to taste what my academy is like. Regardless whether they like it or not, they can have a go. At my academy, there is no politics.
The academy itself, you’re very patriotic about your academy. The country is a bit irrelevant: the flag is your academy. If I was Brazil, Carlson Gracie was Spain, it doesn’t matter. The ‘country flag’ is the logo of the academy you fight for, although of course I would be happy to fight for Brazil if that was an option.
Nowadays in some tournaments, regardless of who won, they take the Brazilians against the Spanish against the Americans, so they have teams fighting against other countries. So that’s starting to happen as well. This is very interesting.
ARTEMIS BJJ: People come to your academy from around the world to train with you, like Nick Brooks. So based on what you said above, presumably you think it is important for students to experience other teaching styles and training partners outside of their home academy?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: It is good to see different styles, but ultimately people will come back to where they feel most welcome, most comfortable, where they feel they’re learning the most. My black belt student who came with me to England has been with me for twenty years. He did try going to other academies, but he ultimately came back to my academy.
It is like when you go on holiday. You try out various restaurants, you eat out in many places, but ultimately you’ll come back to the one you enjoy the most. In Copacabana, you have about fifteen or twenty different academies. If you want to go and try them all out, see their different styles, teaching, the atmosphere, why not? But you will eventually come back to the one that you belong to.
ARTEMIS BJJ: So you would encourage students to check out other places?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: Of course, they should. Especially if they know people from other academies, they have friends training there. It is not like you are knocking on the door and challenging the instructor, as that isn’t very polite. But if you have friends who train in other academies, you should train with them.
It is not difficult to have friends in Rio who train in other academies. In the range of Copacabana, you are bound to know someone, who might invite you to train with them.
ARTEMIS BJJ: As we wrap things up, is there anything you’d like to say to the readers of this interview?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: You can’t just be a dreamer. You have to believe in your dream. You have to really strive to reach your dream, with respect, dedication and humility. There are many aspects to success and achieving your dream. This triad, respect, dedication and humility, is what my family taught me, what jiu jitsu taught me and what I’d like to pass on to the readers.
I always respect my opponents, I’ve always been humble with my game, I’ve always worked really hard, staying humble along the way. It pays off. I learned that from my family, but jiu jitsu taught it to me too. Some days, you are at the top of your game, some days you are not so good, but keep persisting, keep working hard, with dedication, respect and humility. That transfers to your life outside the academy.
Brazilian jiu jitsu is probably most famous – and indeed most innovative – in its use of the guard position. Although this was certainly a part of BJJ’s parent art, judo, it is in BJJ that the guard has arguably reached its highest level of sophistication.
Closed guard is where it all begins. From the perspective of the person on the bottom, you need to control your partner’s posture, breaking them down so that they can neither sit up nor stand up. When you’ve broken their posture (we covered the basics of that on Monday), they will also find it harder to avoid your submission attempts.
The closed guard has numerous submission opportunities, such as chokes, armbars and omoplatas. The transition between the triangle, armbar and omoplata is particularly effective. However, If they manage to stand up, it becomes quite difficult to submit them, as they now have gravity on their side.
On the other hand, a standing opponent is still vulnerable to sweeps. We will be covering various sweeps this month, enabling you to move from the guard (essentially a neutral position) into mount, side control and the back (all dominant positions).
For the person on top, we will examine various methods for passing the closed guard, as well as basics like posture and grip breaking. Unlike open guard, you first need to break the closed guard, a topic in itself (here’s one method). Once that is accomplished, there are many methods for moving around their legs, most of which also have applicability in other types of guard.
We hope you enjoy exploring the closed guard with us this December!
Ricardo de la Riva is among the handful of people whose name has been immortalised within the BJJ lexicon. He was not the first grappler to wrap his leg around his opponent’s lower limbs, but he became synonymous with that hook. In one of Can’s earliest interviews for JJS, he spoke to de la Riva during a visit by the famous guard player at Nick Brooks’ school in Mill Hill.
Sections of this interview appeared in Issue #004 of Jiu Jitsu Style and are reprinted with the kind permission of the editor. In the first of two parts, de la Riva talks about the genesis of his eponymous guard, training with Carlson and his thoughts on modern guard styles
Ricardo de la Riva using his famous guard
ARTEMIS BJJ: You are famous for the de la Riva guard. I’ve read Carlson himself often referred to it as the ‘jello guard’, so did any of that come from a pre-existing guard you learned from Carlson, or was it something you largely developed yourself?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: Carlson’s team was very much focused on passing the guard, so the guard passing aspect was strong: that had a huge influence on my game. I’m very flexible, I’ve always been very flexible.
So, everyone wanted to pass my guard. Since I was a blue belt, I gave the higher grades a hard time because of my flexibility and effective use of the guard. Carlson was always watching over me, supporting me, giving me tips on how to perfect my guard.
ARTEMIS BJJ:I’ve also read you have particularly flexible ankles: was that also helpful?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: Yes, my toes, feet, knees. A few years back, I could easily put my foot behind my head with no problem. Very flexible and thankfully injury free.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Do you think it is more important for a beginning student to develop a solid closed guard, or should they have a good understanding of open guard early on?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA:Teaching is very simple. Teach the hard stuff first, so let’s teach open guard first. That’s how I do it at my academy. If the student is comfortable using open guard, when they progress to closed guard, they’re not going to want to use closed guard, because it’s not as interesting as open guard. Even if the opponent passes their guard, at least the student is trying to play an open game.
ARTEMIS BJJ: You started your training with Marcus Soares. How would you compare his style of teaching to Carlson?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA:Marcus Soares was a brown belt at the time, under Carlson. I was training with Marcus at his home, upstairs. But because Marcus wasn’t affiliated to anybody, I couldn’t compete under him. So, I had to move to Carlson, where I won a competition, from yellow belt to blue belt, under Carlson.
However, the teaching style was very similar, because Marcus was a student of Carlson. So it was a natural progression. There was no difference in the teaching style. We were both students, Marcus and me, under Carlson.
ARTEMIS BJJ:Do you have any favourite memories training with the legendary Carlson competition team during its heyday?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA:Every day, you had to kill the lion, because the training was very very hard, very tense. But it was healthy, it wasn’t a sacrifice by any means. You’re looking after the body, after the mind. It was fun, it wasn’t a chore to go train jiu jitsu, although it was hard.
After the fight, you wouldn’t stay still: at most martial arts, you’re expected to stand still. You would socialise with friends, crack a joke, talk about what happened at the weekend. It was a joy, a pleasure, despite the hard work. I never missed a session. I went to university, but I carried on through my degree, regardless of exams or illnesses.
ARTEMIS BJJ: What was it like to teach at the Carlson academy during the ’80s?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA:As a blue belt, I used to help with teaching girls and children, until I was awarded my purple belt. Then I could teach the whole class by myself. I developed my teaching style by looking at Carlson, who was a big, strong, hard guy, but with a huge heart. I would see the children running around him and hugging him, but at the same time you see this figure who looks very scary.
However, he was captivating, he was someone very charismatic. That’s the same approach I was developing. If my instructor is like this, strong and hard with a mean look, but at the same time very welcoming, very warm, that’s my style.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Having taught that early on, do you think it is generally a good thing for blue belts and purple belts to be teaching and heading up schools, or should it always be a black belt?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: As long as you have support from a black belt. You should encourage, by all means, a purple belt to start learning how to teach, how to pass on the knowledge from the black belt. Sometimes you find a white belt who wants to be a jiu jitsu instructor. So why not give them the opportunity? You pass on the responsibility to a blue belt, to help out the white belt.
It is almost like a monitor at university. You have those monitors at university who give you a hand – you know, PhD students. You give lectures, so you get a PhD student to deliver the class. I’m an example of this. At university, I used to help my lecturers out with the running. I graduated in sports science, so I was always helping my lecturers in that sense.
If you have somebody looking over you, knowing you can rely upon them if you need to, why not?
ARTEMIS BJJ: Do you have any thoughts on more recent developments in BJJ competition, like the fifty/fifty guard, or is it no different than when other guards first emerged, like spider guard or your own de la Riva guard?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA:What has changed in this position is that when you sweep the guy, in a fifty/fifty, you lock a triangle on his legs. What I used to do was sweep the guy, but without locking off the triangle, so the guard was still open. It is a very handy position. The new thing about the fifty/fifty is that you have this variation, which is effective, of locking the triangle.
It is like the spider guard. Before, you used to control the sleeve, putting your foot on the bicep. Later on, the foot went under the armpit. So it is the same principle, the same variation. Just a detail has changed in the position. That’s what is wonderful about jiu jitsu: it is always evolving, always progressing. New things are being taught.
You have a position, so many practitioners, different bodies, different sizes. So you have to adapt the position. It is always evolving, always changing. The evolution of jiu jitsu is continuous.
ARTEMIS BJJ: So is that something you work on in your own game, incorporating these new developments, or do you stick with tried and tested techniques you’ve used for years?
RICARDO DE LA RIVA: Of course: I adapt, I welcome these changes. I prefer to start off with the de la Riva hook and then go to the fifty/fifty position. So yes, I do incorporate it into my own game. You are adding on to your own game, you are adding on to your arsenal of choices. It is not simply just changing one for the other, my game to the fifty/fifty. It is embedding the fifty/fifty onto my own game, making it richer.
Two students in the women’s class working on the transition to mount
Mount is the classic starting point for your BJJ journey. Rorion Gracie used to teach the upa and controlling the mount in his famous intro lesson. It’s a great way of showing just how potent a force leverage can be, even if you’re much smaller than the person sat in mount. For that reason among others, the upa was also the first lesson I taught at the Artemis BJJ women’s class.
We are nearing the end of my planned lesson cycle for the women’s class (which will then restart). This month, the techniques in the mixed class should feel very familiar to students from the women’s class, as you’ve spent a lot of time on mount. That means that along with being a great point for any beginner to start up at Artemis BJJ, November is also a particularly good time for women’s class regulars to dip your toes into the mixed class waters.
In the coming weeks, I’ll be going through the upa and the elbow escape, along with a couple of other mount escape options. We’ll then examine how to hold the mount, as well as some of the powerful submissions from there.
I started my own BJJ journey with multiple world champion Roger Gracie in 2006 (and I’ve never left his lineage): he is very well known for his cross choke from mount. Join us at Artemis BJJ in November to learn what Roger taught me about his iconic choke!
Continuing our John Will interview series (which began here), we conclude with a discussion on the development of Australian BJJ, maintaining a global affiliate network and how to teach a great seminar. Sections of this interview appeared in Issue #010 of Jiu Jitsu Style and are reprinted with the kind permission of the editor.
John Will with Jean Jacques Machado
ARTEMIS BJJ: You were the pioneer of BJJ in Australia, with perhaps the major starting point being the ten day seminar tour you arranged with Carlos Jr and Renzo. What year was that and how did it go?
JOHN WILL: I brought them over in 1990, they were on the cover of the magazine I had [Blitz]. Due to the magazine I had some minor influence, so I was able to set up some seminars for them. We did three or four and a lot of people came: I think it was about sixty. It was well attended, given that at the time, BJJ was unknown.
The only reason anybody in Australia knew anything about it was because I’d written two articles. The UFC hadn’t hit yet, it was just not on anyone’s radar. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, outside of Brazil there was hardly anything apart from Rorion’s school in the States.
So, people came along and it was great. They wrestled everybody and everyone went “Oh my goodness.” We just lined them all up and it was mayhem [laughs]. There was Carlos Gracie Jr and I was a ‘seasoned’ white belt, Renzo was a brown belt. That was the start of the groundswell I guess.
ARTEMIS BJJ: When I recently went to Scotland, both the instructors I interviewed cited a Royce seminar as their starting point, so it seems to have been a seminal moment there. Was the Carlos Jr and Renzo seminar tour around Australia at all similar?
JOHN WILL: No, I don’t think it started for anyone at that seminar. I started it. It was only a couple of years after that it got going. Everyone came and went, “Wow, that’s cool.”
So, I guess what it did was put me in touch with some people who said, “Do you mind coming to my school and giving me a lesson?” I then started to do…well, I wouldn’t call them seminars, but I visited people’s schools and ran a class for them.
It got that going, then people heard about it interstate and would ask, “Can you fly up and teach a seminar?” I’d think, “A seminar? I’m not worthy,” blah blah blah. It was only when I got a purple belt and came back that I started saying yes to things like that. I felt that I could offer something as a purple belt and started doing seminars. I’ve done them ever since.
ARTEMIS BJJ: What are the main changes you’ve seen in Australasian BJJ since then?
JOHN WILL: When it started out, all of us – myself included – were already invested in some other martial art, but were adding a little jiu jitsu to their classes. There is still quite a lot of that going on, but over the years a big thing has been bringing people up through the ranks.
I got a black belt, then I had to create people to brown belt, when I got my second degree I was able to grade people to black belt. Now there are plenty of schools that are purely BJJ schools. That’s the biggest change I’ve seen. Now there are BJJ schools with hundreds of students, who are standing on their own two feet without teaching anything else.
I had no idea that was going to happen. I didn’t particularly want that to happen. I just thought I would add some of this stuff to what I’m already doing. I didn’t know BJJ would take over my life.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Do you think there is anything different about Australian BJJ compared to other national scenes?
JOHN WILL: In Australia, probably New Zealand too, there is probably – and certainly was in the early days – a bit of problem solving going on. When you’re isolated, you can’t just run over to your coach and ask for an answer, you’ve got to start thinking for yourself and analysing. I think there was a lot of that going on, whereas in America they got lucky.
I noticed that when I went to the US, the American students would come up to me and say, “Hey John, what were all those omoplatas and crucifix entries that Rigan taught last year?”
I’d respond, “You were there!”
They’d go, “Yeah, but you remember it!” The only reason that I remembered it is that it cost me a lot to get over there and meant a lot to me. So, I was taking a lot of notes: there’s no way I forgot anything anyone ever taught me. In the early days in America, I think the attitude was more, “I can ask tomorrow, I don’t really need to remember now.”
In Australia, we were behind the eight ball and isolated – like the UK was – it had value. We really valued any technique. Each technique, each strategy, each concept was like a gold ingot. In America, I think it was just a silver ingot, if you know what I mean. That underpinned the way we had to solve problems ourselves.
America is a large place, so there is a lot more crazy stuff going on, people doing 50/50 guard and all these weird things. Probably we’re a bit more fundamental than that. Good solid fundamentals, maybe because that’s all we had to work with at the beginning, we had that ethos. In America, they liked to create a lot of stuff. I’m not saying either is right or wrong, it is what it is.
Some people need to do that, but I think you can go down a weird and windy path. Go underneath there, get under deep half, wrap his belt three times around his leg, put his gi collar in your mouth. That’s all cool and fun, but it has no relationship with reality. We don’t do as much of that. “Oh x-guard, yeah, that’s cool.” I learned x-guard way before it was called x-guard, twenty years ago.
We’re a little bit more like the UK, in that I think we’re more pragmatic, not off in Disneyland like some people elsewhere.
Can at a John Will seminar in 2012
ARTEMIS BJJ: You are a very experienced seminar instructor, having taught all over the world for decades. What in your opinion are the keys to teaching a good seminar?
JOHN WILL: Firstly, you have to engage the class. The class must be fully engaged. It doesn’t matter how good your information is – and it certainly doesn’t matter how good you are – if they are not one hundred percent engaged with what you’re doing. So, the first thing is the science of engagement, it’s a big subject.
You also have to have a very profound understanding of the subject matter, irrespective of what you’re teaching. Not a cursory understanding, a deep understanding. That has to be delivered in a way that is idiot-proof. You might be teaching something that is seemingly quite complex, but if you break it down so that it is very process driven, A-B-C-D-E-F-G, then the worst person on the mat can do it and have a sense of achievement. I think that is a very important skill.
You’ve got to be a world class noticer. You have to be on that mat and you have to really notice what’s going on, that’s a key element as well. It also needs to be highly structured. You can’t have people just facing any direction, going any which way, letting them decide when they switch partners. No. You need to guide them through the process so there is very little room for misinterpretation.
ARTEMIS BJJ: I had another question on what challenges you face as an instructor with so many affiliates on different continents, which you’ve essentially answered already. I guess there is a similarity in what you were saying about having to take BJJ back home and develop it there, with lots of people asking you for seminars: it sounds as if your broader affiliate network is an extension of that?
JOHN WILL: Let me first say, it was accidental. I had no plans for that, people ask me to come over. I don’t like taking responsibility for grading people, especially if I can’t get to them very often. In Australia, it’s easier now because we have a lot of black belts. The class has already been taught by a black belt, then I turn up, though even there it is every three months. I’ve got a circuit that I do three times a year, so I get a lot of contact.
Over in the UK, I only come here once a year, so it is very difficult. I’ve just taught seminars on this trip to people connected with Royce, with Braulio or with whomever. They come to my seminars because they like my teaching style and all of that stuff. The last thing I would ever do is encourage them to come over to us. No, stay with your instructor and be one hundred percent loyal, I’m a big believer in that. I would discourage anyone from jumping ship.
I don’t want to take responsibility, because that is a big responsibility. To take someone from white belt to black belt, you’re talking about a ten to twelve year commitment of your life. From my point of view, that’s the last thing that I want. There are a couple of people in the UK who have said, “No, I want you to do it,” and I’ve reluctantly agreed, but I’m not saying that anymore. I can’t do my job, I can’t fulfil that obligation as well as I would like to be able to fulfil it.
It’s easy in Australia, in my school, but it gets harder as you move away from that school! [laughs]
ARTEMIS BJJ: As you’ve said, you’re not trying to attract potential students from overseas, but what do you think you have to offer that perhaps a local black belt does not?
JOHN WILL: I teach very differently, that’s the feedback I get. People come because they’re only going to get that from me. Not only that, as I’m not only teaching jiu jitsu: it’s my vehicle for them learning how to apply principles from jiu jitsu in the wider aspects of their lives. I like doing that.
I think the jiu jitsu community is pretty interesting in that a lot of people are very willing – certainly all the student base are willing – to fraternise. That’s how life should be, right? Some of the instructors might not like that, but they’re losing sight of the fact like-minded people want to get together.
It doesn’t mean that they’re going to be disloyal: they’re going to come right back to you. By allowing people to get together…guys are doing it everywhere. They train at one school, then get together at weekends in their garage and they’re from five different places, because they want time to fraternise and compare notes. They’re not going to jump ship, they’re going to go right back to their instructor, but people want to share the experience. I think that’s a great thing.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Is there anything else you’d like to say to the readers of this interview?
JOHN WILL: I think that when we’re on the mat, the least return on investment is when you learn a technique that is a solution for a specific situation. If you can learn something off your instructor that you can see six or eight ways to apply throughout your game, then that is a way better return on your investment in time.
But the next level again is if you can figure out a way something you’ve learned on the mat can be used in the wider landscape of your life. Your marriage, your business, the way you live. That’s the biggest return you can ever get on your training.
Don’t just keep a narrow focus. Think about the wider use of what you’re learning, because there are some deep and meaningful concepts in BJJ that we can apply to all aspects of our lives. To not recognise that is really missing the point. I use jiu jitsu as a way of living my life.
Photos courtesy of John Will and Esther Smith. ‘Like’ the Artemis BJJ Facebook group to be notified about future interviews: Carlos Machado, Ricardo de la Riva and Carlson Jr are all in the pipeline. To see all the Artemis BJJ interviews so far, go here
Following on from last week, the John Will interview series continues with his memories of introducing Chuck Norris to the sport. He also talks about going straight from white to purple belt, leading into his thoughts on promotion. Sections of this interview appeared in Issue #010 of Jiu Jitsu Style and are reprinted with the kind permission of the editor.
John Will with Chuck Norris, early 1990s
ARTEMIS BJJ: Moving on slightly, I have read several different versions of how Chuck Norris became involved with BJJ and more specifically the Machados. Black Belt Magazine states Carlos Machado met Chuck Norris while on vacation in Las Vegas during 1988, during his UFAF convention.
The Los Angeles Times claims Rigan met Norris in 1989, while scuba diving. In yet another magazine, it instead points to your old friend Richard Norton. So, what’s you recollection of what actually happened?
JOHN WILL: My goodness, I’d hate to give you a fourth version! [laughs] Also, please understand, this is going back a while, so it is all a bit blurry. Ok, I don’t know if this is politically correct to say, but I’ll tell you what happened and you can decide whether to use it or not, because it may ruffle some feathers.
I’m not certain how he first saw jiu jitsu, but recalling what Chuck said to me, I think he was in Brazil for some reason, with Bob Wall. I think they were down there, perhaps scuba diving, or something like that. They heard about this family and they went along to one of the academies. Bob Wall being Bob Wall said “I’d side kick you,” or something ridiculous, he’s always been like that.
Either way, Chuck was impressed. If I’m not mistaken, it might have been Rickson who was out there. I’m sure they were treated very well, as it was Chuck (Bob is a bit combative whereas Chuck is super-nice), so I think that was Chuck’s first impression, how he connected with it. I’m pretty certain that’s right.
Then what happened is he went back home and he wanted to do more, follow up. I think he knew about Rorion being in Torrance, I think through the Jet Centre, because I believe they knew because Gene LeBell knew, and he’s a friend of Chuck’s. Then, Chuck had his annual UFAF convention in Las Vegas, where he invited Rorion along, as a guest. When you’re invited there, it’s always as a guest, nobody is getting paid fees or anything.
Rorion came along to teach, but then gave Chuck a bill at the end of it. Now, I’ve heard, though I certainly don’t know if it’s true, that this bill was $15,000. That made Chuck go, “Oh my god. That’s not what we’re doing here.” Now, even if it’s true, I’m not saying Rorion is wrong, because he is certainly entitled to get paid for what he does, but I don’t think that’s what Chuck thought, so there was obviously some miscommunication.
The end result of it was Chuck saying, “Well, here’s your money,” but he decided he wouldn’t have anything more to do with those guys.
ARTEMIS BJJ: So it wasn’t that he couldn’t afford it, but that he didn’t want to have that kind of arrangement?
JOHN WILL: I think it just started out wrong. You know how these things go, it could just as easily have started out right. A lot of things, I’m now old enough to know, it’s just miscommunication. People come in not understanding clearly what was going on, because that’s what happens in life.
So, that’s probably unfortunate, that’s what happened. Chuck kind of went cold on the whole idea. Then I came along, so I think it might have been me that met him, and I said to him, “Hey Chuck, look, one of the Machados is right here in town. They’re really good people, they’re not…I’m not saying Rorion is all about the money, but they’re not all about the money. They’re about jiu jitsu and promoting it, you’re going to love it.”
Richard Norton’s account of how Chuck came to connect up with the Machados would without doubt be more accurate and complete than mine: it should be noted that I only have a vague recollection. All I remember is pretty much one conversation I had with Chuck at the Jet Centre, where I espoused on how great the Machado brothers were and that he should train with them. Richard, no doubt, had pre-empted me on this. He played the pivotal role in introducing Chuck to the Machados and should be recognised for such.
So, Chuck came along and he met the Machados, Rigan, if I’m not mistaken. Then Chuck said “Oh wow, this is different,” because their response was, “We don’t want your money: you’re Chuck Norris! Could you give us an autograph? We’ll teach you for free!” [laughs]
That’s when he got into it, and then he became so into it that he was instrumental in bringing all of them up, getting their green cards and getting Carlos Machado established in Texas, where he lived. I think that’s fairly accurate.
ARTEMIS BJJ: Yeah, that seems to mesh with the various stories I’ve read. So, that would have been about 1990?
JOHN WILL: It was before the UFC, so I reckon you’re about right. It was probably around 1990, pre-UFC. Yeah.
ARTEMIS BJJ: You mention in your book that you went straight from white belt to purple. I assume that was as unusual then as it is now: if so, did you realise your comparatively unique status at the time?
JOHN WILL: The first thing I’d like to say is that I have no natural talent. I think that situation was a function of me living in Australia and travelling over for training, spending time there then coming back, that kind of stuff. So, it was me going away, and I probably passed blue belt level, meaning I should have been graded to blue but I just wasn’t there.
So, at some point when I was training down in Redondo Beach, my first grading was purple. How are you getting this information? Not many people know that. [laughs]
ARTEMIS BJJ: It’s all in your books. [laughs]
JOHN WILL: So, I went straight to purple. I didn’t like that. I’ve fought tooth and nail against every grading I’ve ever had, said “Please, don’t do that, please just let me be a blue belt.”
They said, “No, you’re a purple belt.” I remember the day it happened. I had to wrestle a Brazilian purple belt: they said if I beat him, I get a purple. I made a big mistake, beat him, which was not a good idea. But it wasn’t anything to do with me being special, absolutely not, it was the time I was away. I was not there for my blue belt grading, put it that way. That’s all it was.
John Will with Jean Jacques Machado
ARTEMIS BJJ: You mention that you didn’t want the belt. There seems to be this split when people get promoted, into two groups. The first is very humble, saying they don’t want it, they’re not ready, they’d rather stay a white belt their entire time in jiu jitsu. The second, which I see on the internet all the time, are excited about their achievement and will shout it to everyone, “Hooray, I got my blue belt!”
What’s your perspective on that?
JOHN WILL: Who am I to say anything? People can think what they like, but all I can say is what I felt, and I never felt adequate. There was always more, I always felt I just needed a bit more training, to be a bit fitter, a bit better. I need to be a bit better husband, I need to be a better whatever. I think anybody striving towards excellence in anything is like that. They’re a little bit dissatisfied with the level that they’ve reached, so they’re always trying to raise the bar, whereas other people are happy to be right where they are, and I also think there is a large part of the martial arts community trying to lower the bar.
So, I think it’s like a bell curve. Some people at one extreme are trying to raise the bar, they’re really working at that, and other people are very much the other way, giving out black belts, not even BJJ but other schools. Everyone else falls somewhere in the middle. Certainly when I was starting out, I never felt that I was good enough.
Also, I was hanging out with an unusual crowd. My BJJ friends were Renzo, Rilion, Ralph: they were all in my class. My classmate Cesar Gracie and I came up together through the ranks. I was not with a bunch of people who just walked off the street. I thought all brown belts were like Renzo, all purple belts are like Cesar, all black belts are like Jean Jacques and Rigan. Of course, that’s not the case, but straight away, I was calibrated to that. Naturally I therefore thought, “Jeez, I’m a crappy purple belt.” [laughs]
ARTEMIS BJJ: Has that impacted on your own standards of promotion?
JOHN WILL: It probably has, I would say so. A little bit. But I’m ok with that and I’m certainly not in judgement of anyone else. There’s something to be said for it being easier than it was back then. I think it is way better that we keep people, because they feel they’re making progress, as they can see their new belts. It is way better that you keep then, rather than it is so hard that you lose them and now they’re not training.
It’s a balance. At the end of the day, we want certain outcomes, we want people to keep training. If that means it is a little bit easier to get a blue belt nowadays, then I’m totally fine with that.
ARTEMIS BJJ: That kind of ties into the next question. Perhaps the most striking story I read in Passion & Purpose was the anecdote about David Meyer.
He was a Danzan Ryu Jiu Jitsu third degree black belt, but shortly after starting BJJ and getting dominated by your purple belt self, he announced to his class that he could no longer in good conscience wear his black belt and teach them. Instead, he was going to shut down the school and strap on a white belt.
That kind of humility is very rare, due to the prestige of a black belt. With the increasingly widespread growth of BJJ, are people like Meyer becoming more or less common?
John Will with Rilion Gracie in 1987
JOHN WILL: It’s a good question, an interesting question. Certainly at the time, it was startling to me that he did that. It showed me the heart of the guy, right away, in an instant. He is one of the most moral, ethical people that I’ve ever met: he’s had a profound influence on me. I’m a much better person for having known David Meyer. I think that’s a great way to choose your friends. If you’re better off having known them, they’re good people. So, we became fast friends because of that.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe it is easier nowadays. Maybe today, people are a little bit less wedded to the rank and therefore it might be easier for them to do what Meyer did back then. But when he did it, it was climbing Mount Everest for the first time. Nowadays, lots of people do it, and they aren’t even mountain climbers. Probably nowadays it is a little easier, because there’s so much literal proof all around us that a BJJ black belt is a very worthy goal, it is easier for people to start. I’m sure of it, actually, as thousands of martial artists have done exactly that.
Now, maybe they haven’t closed their schools down, but in fairness David only had twenty or thirty students. It wasn’t like he was closing his business down, that would have been pretty incredible. He was closing his hobby down. I don’t want to take away from him, because it was still a wonderful thing. He was trying to encourage them, though interestingly enough, only one or two of them came over, but after six months none of them were there. Except for Dick Treanor, he came over and he’s still pottering around.
Update October 2014: Richard Norton contacted the site to add his recollections of how Chuck Norris first encountered BJJ. He also pointed to a recent interview with Norris himself, which can be read in the first issue of The Complete Martial Artist. Norris discusses first meeting the Gracies in 1986, along with how Norton introduced him to the Machado brothers. Here are Norton’s thoughts:
RICHARD NORTON: My own introduction to the Machado brothers and BJJ was when Chuck came back from Brazil and brought with him a video of an early Vale Tudo match that Rickson Gracie had with this other fighter, Zulu.
I remember Chuck showing me the tape and both of us thinking how interesting this grappling and striking no rules submission fighting was. Remember, this was years before the UFC ever came into being. John Will and I were sitting in my lounge after a workout and watching this tape with Rickson that I had brought back to Australia. We were fascinated by this (at least for us) new form of submission fighting.
Soon after, I travelled back to California and managed to locate Rorion Gracie, Helio’s son and the original UFC founder, who as it turned out was living in a house not far from where I lived in the US. I immediately started doing private lessons with the legendary Rickson Gracie and Royce Gracie in a garage at Rorion’s house in Redondo Beach.
I trained doing privates with Rickson for at least eight months before meeting Renzo Gracie. He then introduced me to the Machado brothers, who had also recently moved to California to set up shop. I remember after I started training with the Machados that I said to Chuck, “You have got to meet these guys, they are unbelievable”.
So of course Chuck said, “Let’s bring them to the house and do a couple of hours of private lessons with them.”
I remember laughing and saying, “I think half an hour will be plenty!” As it turned out, it was absolutely plenty, because wrestling with these guys for half an hour was like doing a four-hour work out with anybody else. They were that good.
Anyway, Chuck and I eventually helped set up the five Machado brothers at their very first school in Los Angeles. One more thing that I feel I must add. which to me again illustrated the type of attitude that helped make Chuck the champion he was, is that when we first started BJJ classes with the Machados in their new academy, the very first person on the mat, with a white belt on, was Chuck Norris.
How much better an example is there than to see a world karate champion and a black belt in judo on the mat as a white belt, with no ego and just simply being content with being a student? He was more than willing to do whatever it took to learn and add to his knowledge base. The rest is history: Chuck and I are still devout students and dear friends of the Machados to this day.
Presently I am honoured to hold a 4th degree black belt under Jean Jacques Machado and to have the privilege of being the first ever 4th degree black belt in BJJ in Australia.
In addition to our central location at Bristol Sports Centre near Cabot Circus, we can now offer BJJ in Kingswood at PHNX Fitness. Classes are Thursdays from 20:00-21:15, with an open mat on Saturdays from 10:00-12:00. For our full timetable, head over to the Classes page on this website. Remember, your first week is free, so we look forward to welcoming you onto the mats soon!
Artemis BJJ (East Bristol) PHNX Fitness
Unit 7, Two Mile Hill Commercial Centre,
217-227 Two Mile Hill Road,
Kingswood,
Bristol, BS15 1AZ
If you would like some further details in addition to that map, hopefully the pictures and directions below will help (you can click on the pictures to make them bigger).
Once you are on Two Mile Hill Road, you’re looking for the Two Mile Hill Commercial Centre: we’re located in Unit 7, PHNX Fitness.
Coming up the hill, you should see the sign. Turn left.
If you’re coming up the hill, you’ll see a big sign that says ‘Two Mile Hill Commercial Centre’, just after the AutoFit garage. There is a PHNX Fitness sign on the corner of the wall in front of it.
Turn in to the small road, next to the AutoFit garage. You’ll normally see a number of parked cars in the distance, along with several car repair garages. Keep on going down that small side road, then turn left at the end.
If you continue on a short distance, you should then see Unit 7 in front of you, with a PHNX Fitness sign by the door. If you’re arriving in the dark, there is a security light that comes on when you’re directly outside, but be aware that the approach may not be as well lit until you reach Unit 7.
Heading down the hill: look out for the small side road on the right
If you’re coming down the hill on Two Mile Hill Road, look out for the shop on the right offering ‘Foam Cut To Size’ and The Nylon Shop next to that. We can be found down the turning on the right immediately afterwards, between the AutoFit garage and The Nylon Shop.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to email us at info@artemisbjj.com. You can also get in touch via our Facebook page, or you can call on 07740 197 319
Returning to our first ever position of the month, Artemis BJJ will be exploring side control over October. BJJ terminology is not standardised, so this position has a few other names. The most common alternatives are ‘side mount’ and ‘cross side’: for a listing of some others, take a look at Can’s BJJ glossary.
In jiu jitsu, you will find that – especially early on – you will spend a lot of time trying to escape from under side control, so it’s an essential skill to develop. We’ll be looking at some key escapes for the next fortnight.
Maintaining the position is also important. Side control tends to be the preferred top position for beginners, as it is initially easier to hold than mount (though as you’ll discover in the coming months, mount is just as powerful, if not more so. However, the nuances of holding mount can be a bit tricky when you’re starting out).
We will of course also be investigating a few attacks from side control as well. Once you can maintain side control, it becomes a great platform from which to launch your offence.
John Will is a true pioneer in BJJ, one of the rare people outside of Brazil to have trained in BJJ almost a decade before the UFC. On top of that, he has membership in an even rarer group, the ‘Dirty Dozen’: they are the first twelve non-Brazilian black belts. Can was lucky enough to meet John Will back in 2012, before a seminar in the UK, where they talked at length about BJJ history.
Sections of this interview appeared in Issue #010 of Jiu Jitsu Style and are reprinted with the kind permission of the editor. In the first of several parts, John Will talks about what it was like to train BJJ back when it was still barely known outside of its native Brazil.
John Will training with Renzo Gracie in the mid ’80s
ARTEMIS BJJ: You’re a member of a very special group, the Dirty Dozen. Therefore I’d like to start with a number of questions about your memories of the early years of BJJ’s international expansion. To begin, I’d like to ask when you first met Rorion, and secondly what it was like being on the receiving end of his classic “try and escape my mount” introductory lesson?
JOHN WILL: I was owner and editor of the Australian martial arts magazine, Blitz. I started that magazine. It was probably only two issues in, around the mid 1980s. A guy came to Australia called Marcelo Behring, and he came offering the challenge that was going around back then: $50,000 for anyone who could beat him. That was at a time when nobody was doing that, so it was quite a radical departure from the way people were behaving in the martial arts.
Naturally even though it was a very small article, it was a $50,000 challenge, I was intrigued by that. I put it right at the front of the magazine, but no-one responded. You know, no-one had $50,000, but then it went $20,000, $10,000, $5000 and still no-one responded. I think the guy was out there surfing, so he just thought he’d give it a crack.
So, nothing happened, but it certainly got me curious. I made a few phone calls to some friends in Los Angeles, and I said “Have you heard of these Brazilian guys, who are apparently fighting no rules for money. It can’t be capoeira: have you heard of that?”
Then one of them went away for a week and sniffed around a bit, and he came back to me and said “Yeah, I think there is a guy out in Torrance, teaching out of his garage.” Of course it turned out this was Rorion Gracie. Rickson was there also and Royce was quite young, still a kid. My friend continued, “By the way, we did a lesson. John, you’ve got to come out here, these guys are really good.”
I got on a plane, which was difficult for me as I didn’t have any money. I was just a dojo rat: my magazine was barely eking me a living, but that’s why I had the magazine, it was an excuse to travel. I came to America, because at least it was all tax deductible. I thought what I’m really going to do is spend my time training at the Jet Centre with Benny the Jet and different things like that. I did that, then I went out to Torrance.
I rang up and Rorion answered, though I didn’t know who he was at the time. Then I asked “Can I come out?” and he said sure. I asked, “Shall I bring anything?”
He said, “Bring a kimono.”
I thought he meant one of those Japanese kimonos, like a pink one [laughs]. What a weird request! But of course, I’ll go and I bought him a Japanese kimono! [laughs] I rocked up and that was my present for him. When he got that kimono he probably thought I was insane, but we’d never used that word, ‘kimono’. That was not a word associated with martial arts.
So anyway, I rocked up out there and asked if I could do some lessons, I’ll do an interview. I put him on the front of the magazine and did all that, but it didn’t buy me any brownie points with him. In any other martial art, I would have been training for free. Not in this case: it was expensive, nearly $100 a private lesson, which was more money than I had at that time.
ARTEMIS BJJ: So, that would have been late 1980s?
JOHN WILL: That was either ’85 or ’86. I think it was 1986. I only had $400 and it was going to cost $500, so I had to borrow $100: I was destitute. However, I was so impressed when I went out there. I did the first few lessons with him, then on the last day, he said he couldn’t take the lesson, he was going to Disneyland with his kids, but his cousin was coming up from Brazil, Rigan Machado. Rorion had him there working for $5 a class or something. Rigan was teaching fifteen classes a day for a milkshake and a hamburger. [laughs]
So, I lucked out and I met Rigan. He taught me my last class, which I really loved. He was really passionate about it, a national champion at the time, obviously excited to be in America. Long story short, I basically went home, with what you can imagine you would learn in five lessons: basic sweep, upa, armbar, guard pass, side control, Americana, kimura. A few other little things, headlock escapes.
With that handful of techniques, I just jumped all over every judo black belt and Japanese Jujitsu black belt I could find. I thought, “Oh my goodness, I’m tying these guys in knots with five lessons. Maybe I should take ten lessons!” [laughs]
I saved up my money hard, became enthusiastic and made my way back there with the intention of getting an address off Rorion for Brazil. I figured that would be cheaper, so I could afford it. Not that I wouldn’t have wanted to train with him, I just seriously couldn’t afford it.
When I went back, the same thing happened. He said he couldn’t teach me today, but his cousin was still here. I head up and hear “My Australian friend!” Then Rigan said, “Don’t train here, come to Brazil! We’re going to train every morning and every night.”
I said, “Yeah, that’s what I want, an address in Brazil.”
He replied, “You don’t need an address in Brazil”, because by this time he had learned more English, “I’m going down in two days, come with me.” I’ve been with all of those guys ever since.
ARTEMIS BJJ: That leads into the next question, as in your books, you talk a lot about Rigan. I was therefore wondering if you could talk a bit about him?
JOHN WILL: I thought, this is a person I want to spend time around. I didn’t know how good he was at jiu jitsu. I mean, any blue belt would have been quite enough of a coach at that point for me, right?
I only realised when I was in Rio, sitting in Barra Gracie. Back then, it was owned by several of the Machados, Carlos Gracie Jr and a woman called Danielle Dutra. So, I was sitting there and Renzo was sitting next to me. He was one of the few people who could speak fluent English. All these really great guys were coming in: Rilion Gracie, top guys who were top competitors at the time, everyone was going “ooo” and “aah” as these guys were coming through the door.
I said to Renzo, “What’s going on, is it some special occasion tonight?”
“Oh yeah, yeah. They’ve come to train with him.”
Rigan was sitting next to me. I looked past Rigan, saying “Who? Who?”
“With him!”
I said, “What, with this goofball?” To me, Rigan was just my goofy friend. “Really, with him?”
Renzo then asked, “Don’t you know who that is?”
“Yeah, that’s my friend Rigan.”
“John, he’s absolutely awesome.”
So, it was purely luck as to how it went, in terms of choosing a coach. I think it is great to choose people based on “Hey, I like spending time in their company.” I did, because he was so nice and generous, all that stuff.
John Will training at the original Gracie Barra school in 1987
ARTEMIS BJJ: Do you remember what year it would have been when you were at Barra?
JOHN WILL: 1987.
ARTEMIS BJJ: So, shortly after you trained with Rorion?
JOHN WILL: Correct. Within a year. I must say, Rorion and Royce and those guys, Rickson, that was my first experience. A wonderful experience, because that’s why I was inspired. It was like an injection of spirit. I really thought, “this is absolutely awesome.” It all kicked off from there.
